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John Ward July 13, 2011 Cameron threats

EXCLUSIVE: Why the Gordon Brown trail could sink Camerlot.

The Slog examines the part that Coulson and Brown may yet play in David Cameron’s downfall

There was a sense in the air yesterday, both at Westminster and in the media, that the Government has lost control of Hackgate management; or more especially, that Camerlot has. By Camerlot, I mean the people close to the Prime Minister in the Cabinet and 10 Downing Street, and around his country pile in Chipping Norton: for what’s been clear for some time is that this isn’t a Coalition Government. It isn’t even a Tory Government. It’s a Camerlot Government.

I will return to this theme later, but for now I wish merely to record that (while this is a view I’ve held since February) as of yesterday afternoon, other commentators were starting to think – albeit in private – that David Cameron won’t survive Hackgate. For me personally, Gordon Brown’s broadcast views were pivotal to that view.

In a nutshell, if revelations about the nature of this scandal don’t get any worse, then Cameron will survive with ease. Until yesterday, the media had largely stuck to banging on about the PM’s judgement. Miliband scored a few goals from ten inches out, and Jeremy Hunt gave a robustly indifferent performance in the Commons sufficient to suggest that he’s trapped between a crock and a tarred case. But worse things happen at sea.

However, as the depth of Newscorp depravity and the fixed smile beneath Murdoch’s pork-pie hat continued to turn a PR disaster into a business meltdown, David Cameron caved in under the pressure. He gave his blessing to an All-Party motion asking the Murdochs to withdraw their BSkyB bid – on a permanent rather than Machiavellian basis; and he was forced to sit down with Clegg and Miliband to reach a consensus about how the scandal would be handled in the immediate Parliamentary future. There is a very simple reason why he did this: by yesterday lunchtime, the Conservative Whips were telling him they couldn’t guarantee a majority against the motion Miliband had proposed about the unfit and improper nature of Newscorp. What The Slog predicted last Sunday had come to pass: even the Tory Right now thinks a vote defending the likes of Rebekah Brooks is a little like being an apologist for Rosemary West.

The key phrase in my book is ‘ if revelations about the nature of this scandal don’t get any worse’. I think we can all assume they will: Brooks herself (she having the discretion of a dayglo barrage balloon) has already said there is much worse for Newscorp to endure. And my own Fleet Street contacts confirm this with certainty. The Wapping Dam Busters are determined that it will get worse.

But ‘worse’ in what direction?

Highly significant yesterday was former Met security boss Andy Hayman’s bizarre outburst of auto-sainthood in front of Keith Vaz’s Select Committee. The man’s attitude had to be seen to be believed: while I can appreciate the chagrin of any copper being patronised by the sanctimony of a dodgy character like Vaz, even so the arrogance of Hayman’s ham act suggested to me a man who sees himself as somehow above the fray. One would wonder seriously about his judgement if that’s really what he thinks; he doesn’t, of course – Mr Hayman (himself a Newscorp employee) believes in offence as the best form of defence. It certainly offended me: but Hayman is a litigious character, so we must leave it there.

Yes, it will get much worse for the Metropolitan Police. This should be a trap-free zone for Cameron: he’s expressed confidence in the police, rather as one would expect a patrician shires Tory to do: but he didn’t either approve or laud any of the players involved. All the solids that might hit the fan should have little stickers on them saying ‘under the last Government’: he ought to feel squeaky-clean.

But does he?

Camerlot’s lost control would seem at first sight to face its greatest dangers within the political sphere. First, the Coalition formed by Cameron is all over the place, some of the newer intake are losing faith in their Leader, and over at City Hall Boris Johnson continues to plot what he sees as his unstoppable rise to power. Johnson has been very critical of the Met police – but also attacked those on the Hard Left who would destabilise the force for purely polemic reasons. This puts him in a strong position as a power-broker in the shuffling about that is (at the very least) now certain to come about. While the two men enjoy the sort of cordial relationship one would expect between chaps who share the same school tie, the truth is that Johnson sees Dave as not at all what the Country needs. Boris thinks that the country needs a jolly good dose of him.

His affected buffoonery should be ignored: he is a smart man, and in private isn’t happy to see a whole chunk of the Right Wing press disappear. Lest we forget, he is a hack himself. As he is currently a Mayor, I still think Boris isn’t ready to move yet; I’m not sure after the events of the last five days he would go for it even if he could. My hunch is that BoJo would like to save the Party from a situation in which it was very seriously floundering. He’ll keep his eye on things, and wait until it really is.

It’s another area that I now sense could do for Cameron. That is, just how deep did his relationship with Newscorp go both before and after the General Election of 2010? Scanning the American press last night, it was interesting to see how they are beginning to report the UK’s Hackgate scandal from the perspective of a culture that experienced Watergate: the Washington Post questions keep on being repeated: what did he know? And when did he know it?

There was also Deep Throat’s infamous advice, “Follow the money”. But the only reason he said this was because Woodward and Bernstein had obtained audited details of Nixon’s re-election campaign. More likely to help in the Cameron/Newscorp context, I think, is who did he know? When did he know them? And what did they get up to?

As for the Chipping Norton set, most gossips continue to insist that the vast majority of them are keen on The Real Thing, and we’re not talking Pepsi-Cola here. I still think that the thought of detailed, evidenced revelations about this coming to light may well be something the PM fears: even in 2011, we are looking at an illegal drug. If such allegations were proved – or even accusations made with enough force and credibility – David Cameron would be history. This isn’t stuff about which you can claim ‘I didn’t inhale’. Inhalation is the whole point. The Slog is also picking up repeated rumours about what regularly turns James Murdoch on. There is more to be known in this area; and there is a logical conclusion to be drawn…..that this is why Rebekah Brooks is still extant: she has the negatives, as we used to say before digitalisation.

If it remains scurrilous rumour and accusation, then again Cameron is in the clear. It’s the When did He Know Them? question that’s been exercising my mind this week.

David Cameron became Tory leader in 2006, and hired Andy Coulson as a personal, Party-paid adviser during 2007. Whatever he says today, the PM hired him on George Osborne’s advice as a means of easy access to Rupert Murdoch. In 2007, Newscorp was still officially supporting the Blair Government – although its picky patriarch was having doubts. By 2009 (when the Murdochs were very wobbly about Brown – and blagging his medical records) Cameron and Rebekah Brooks were already close – he and his wife Samantha attended her second marriage to Charlie Brooks in June of that year. During this mini-epoch, Murdoch switched sides from Labour to Conservative. He listened to, and accepted, Rebekah’s counsel on the matter.

By June 2010, Coulson had followed David Cameron into Downing Street. Enough people to fill Wembley stadium told the Prime Minister that Coulson was dodgy. He ignored them all in his relentless determination to keep Murdoch onside. The Old Boy, it seemed, was unhappy with Dave’s new Coalition partners: they weren’t on-message enough. And who was this bloke Clegg?

What did the Cameron/Coulson/Brooks troika get up to during that two and a half-year period when the Conservatives were still in Opposition? I’ve no idea at the moment; but one fact stands out like the dog’s proverbials: Brooks is, unaccountably, still in a job. She is (to me, obviously) in possession of some very toxic information.

But under pressure, the PM has sort of dumped her by saying that, had he been Murdoch, he’d have accepted her resignation. From a man who staunchly defended Coulson right up to his arrest, this was advice which Rupe perhaps took with a pinch of salt. And as of yesterday, Cameron accepted the All-Party ‘disapproval’ of Murdoch himself.

So you’d think this leaves Andy Coulson, by a process of elimination, as the one man left standing who may know enough to deal Cameron a mortal blow. Perhaps he is, but there are others at the fringes of the radar.

Let’s go back to Coulson’s modus operandi and contacts. Previously on Hackgate, last April 28th the Slog wrote a longish examination of the closeness or otherwise of Coulson’s working relationship with Andy Hayman between roughly 2002 and 2008, before they went their separate ways. That they cooperated on news story/Met Police stings is irrefutable. There were also accusations that, during the Met’s second hacking enquiry, Hayman blocked access to files incriminating Coulson, but they remained just that – unsubstantiated. Hayman has a long background in security. Coulson is believed to have ordered the hacking of at least one national security phone involved in an anti-IRA sting. Coulson told the Tommy Sheridan jury that he “may have had a cup of tea with Andy Hayman once or twice”. Like most of Andy’s testimony that day, the statement is almost certainly bollocks.

Jump-cut now to the one-time Great Helmsman of Cool Britannia.

As of yesterday, Gordon Brown began talking openly about how his medical records were blagged by Newscorp. The Slog’s predecessor Not Born Yesterday achieved a level of infamy in October 2009 for publishing the simple fact that negative rumours about Brown’s mental (depression) and physical (eyesight) health were circulating throughout Whitehall and Westminster. I am happy to confirm that I didn’t hack any midair phones or blag any Eye Hospital records as background for the story: my main sources were two civil servants, three MPs, an adman, a Tory Party activist, and a prominent medical practitioner by proxy.

However, one of those MPs (and a since deceased senior Mandarin) were adamant that the Tory Shadow Cabinet were completely aware of Brown’s alleged condition. In the latter case, the phrase used was “they have all the details they need about Brown’s state of health”. In the light of Gordon Brown’s statement, I do find that information even more disturbing than I did back then. Remember, my concern (anger even) at the time was partly based on the Whitehall accusation that Camerlot was pursuing a deliberate policy of keeping the holed Titanic Brown in his job as Prime Minister. (This observation, by the way, didn’t stop me from becoming an immediate pariah to the Left, and an Unperson at the Rusbridger Guardianista).

The question I’m asking myself now is, how was the Tory Shadow Cabinet so certain about the alleged mental and physical health of Gordon Brown at the time? And believe me, it wasn’t from reading nby, which had a circulation of around 1500 at the time.

As things move on and buried bodies are exhumed, away from purely corporate or legal ramifications it seems to me there are three important players who between them could end David Cameron’s career: Andy Coulson, Andy Hayman, and perhaps even Gordon Brown. Events in all three areas should be closely observed.

As to Rebekah Brook’s career, that’s over anyway. But a focus on her bylines (if any) between 2001-2003, and 2007-2010, might mean her going Direct to Jail. Or not, allegedly.

There are so many players in this saga now, we need a reasoned audit about who’s worried and why across the piece. If I have time, that will appear later today; if not tomorrow.

In the meantime, another day of potential drama dawns.

 

 

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Posted in Cameron threats and tagged Coulson/Hayman relationship., EXCLUSIVE will events in Opposition sink Cameron?, Gordon Brown health rumours 2009, Rebekah Brooks Sun bylines, what Dave & Andy Did Next. Bookmark the permalink.

53Comments

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  1. 1
    John Brown on July 20, 2011 at 11:23 am

    I thought the comment Rupert Murdoch made about Gordon Brown was rather telling during the MP’s questioning session. It was almost like a request to Gordon to “shut up” and then they could be friends again…don’t worry Gordon, Uncle Rupert will look after you, you can come in from the cold if you don’t sink Cameron and NewsCorp. Clearly Rupert can’t be seen to pick up the phone to Gordon right now, so mentioning how he really respects Gordon and wants to get the friendship back is the most obvious way to get the message through. Gordon – if you are listening, this is the one chance that we have of removing the evil stinking power that the Murdoch family has over the [as close as it gets to democracies] in the UK, the US and Australia right now. Don’t lose your bottle now!

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  2. 2
    How ignoring both Hackgate advice and EU meltdown will do for Camerlot before too long. | The Slog on July 18, 2011 at 11:55 am

    […] case of where his secret papers went…and how they got there. There are even some who think Brown may have something of a smoking gun in relation to when his phone was hacked….and why the Conservative Shadow Cabinet seemed to be […]

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  3. 3
    Gary on July 14, 2011 at 7:40 am

    Sir Paul Condon stated in 1997 that there were at least 250 corrupt police officers in Scotland Yard (there are probably many more now, I’d say about 500 at least). He also said that it was extremely difficult to tackle this problem because many of the bent coppers had greater financial resources for legal battles.
    I wonder where the bent coppers got such wealth and legal clout from? Maybe an additional source of money and support?
    Step forward the tabloid press, eager to lend a helping hand to the corrupt woodentops­. While self-right­eously screaming about crime, these same newspapers have been funding police corruption and aiding it.
    Remember that, next time you see the Daily Mail, Sun, Express, Daily Star, Mirror, etc screaming about crime. Several hundred bent coppers in bed with, and protected by the British press.

    The rot is deep, the stink is overwhelmi­ng. There are still around 3,700 people still to be informed, and with each informing, a new scandal comes.

    We can likely look forward to reading about rape victims being hacked, break-ins, perverting the course of justice, protection rackets (this is already clear from the NotW scandal), children being spied on, dealings with criminals, etc.
    Here’s my prediction: MI5 took bribes from Murdoch, Dacre, Desmond, et al, as well.
    I’ll also bet good money that De Menezes family were hacked.

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  4. 4
    John Ward on July 13, 2011 at 9:49 pm

    See my later End of the Day blog

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  5. 5
    Caratacus on July 13, 2011 at 8:23 pm

    Well said – both Dan and BT. You sum up the struggling optimism and earthed realism perfectly.

    btw – I have a job lot of piano wire if anyone’s interested ……

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  6. 6
    Bankrupt Taxpayer on July 13, 2011 at 6:03 pm

    Agreed. Ian Blair was a Tony Blair plant in the Met Police and pushed up the (already existent) level of corruption fast and furiously. Police pressure for endless new anti-liberty powers exposes them for the fascist police state they are really wanting.

    As for the de Menezes case: sure, that was a national disgrace and a watershed which clearly demonstrated how the corrupt CPS have an unwritten role to protect the Establishment from its own serious mistakes.

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  7. 7
    Bankrupt Taxpayer on July 13, 2011 at 5:48 pm

    @DaninSpain:
    That’s a very good rant which I believe very many people on John’s Slog will agree with wholeheartedly.
    A major problem in achieving what you describe is that all the powers of change are in the hands of the very people rightly described as slimeballs. That means real change can only come about by mass civil insurrection …which of course is unlawful in most respects, so a large majority of people don’t want to get involved and will continue to go along with the growing corruption we have. My best guess is that we are going through the final days of a serious implosion in the Establishment …but final days can take a longish time to pass.

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  8. 8
    mytwopenneth on July 13, 2011 at 4:09 pm

    Tooting Norton ?

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  9. 9
    Caratacus on July 13, 2011 at 3:41 pm

    Thanks Mick – Told you I was simple :-)

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  10. 10
    MickC on July 13, 2011 at 3:29 pm

    Sorry, I don’t think I’ve explained myself properly.
    My “right” was in quotes-i.e. I did not think they were right but most of “liberal” thinking apparently did (or more likely they went along with it to benefit their careers). And to them the fact that huge numbers of innocent people were killed is irrelevant-they could assuage that by believing they had done the right thing.
    There will always be Murdochs around-there won’t always be a free press if our rulers have their way.
    In respect of the Slogs latest post, I actually don’t think there are many people in authority with ethics, and, if there are, they don’t achieve much-Frank Field is a fine example. Yes, think the unthinkable but by God, don’t expect anything to come of it, and have your career trashed for doing it.

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  11. 11
    maurice brady on July 13, 2011 at 3:19 pm

    The fact of the matter is that NO ultimate concept of right/wrong exists. All posts give a personal perspective — therefore highly subjective. Yates is a narrow-minded egotist & should resign — many would disagree with that. Murdoch could be a force for good — albeit greed & corruption are essential elements to his organisation & probably the man himself. Harping on about the ‘Digital & Electronic Age’ is illusory & self deceptive — ‘There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio’ — Greater wrongs have been perpetrated & will be again — so let’s get things in proportion! Have you tried the Daily Mash? — http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/

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  12. 12
    David on July 13, 2011 at 3:01 pm

    agreed – correct.

    It’s a tactical victory to Labour but methinks Murdoch’s going to win on strategy. He’ll sell his UK newspapers and so he doesn’t need any due process to buy BSKyB in 6 months. Job done.

    Meanwhile expect a string of extremely embarrassing revelations about how Labour bent over backwards to do anything Murdoch wanted in 1996-2009 – leaked via the Murdock press and Sky. It’s going to make messrs Blair, Brown, McBride and Campbell look like the two-faced expedients they always were – it will be interesting to see which way Brown’s ‘moral compass’ ends up pointing!

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  13. 13
    DaninSpain on July 13, 2011 at 2:52 pm

    I’ve been mulling this over for a couple of days now and I think a lot of people are missing the point slightly. Surely, this is the watershed moment we’ve all been waiting for? To clean up the establishment once and for all. Squabbling over who’s done what etc. They’re all in it for themselves and can all go as far as I’m concerned.
    We’ve spent the last 15 years gradually losing our democracy, our freedom of speech, our culture, our morals, our respect etc etc.Our society is in a disgusting state. It’s become clear to me that all the politicians, civil servants, media, bankers are all in some cosy little vested interests club. I’m sick to the back teeth of them all.
    I don’t know about you but I want to be governed by people who do it because they care. Because what happens to our country really matters for future generations. We need leaders who are prepared to work for the glory and not their own self advancement. Our country needs putting back on the right track in virtually all areas. Everything is very wrong. Slackers and shysters seem to get everything their way yet the good old honest taxpayers are completely shafted and have no voice anymore. If you’re prepared to work hard and make good money you’re basically robbed by the taxman. Pensioners and the military are routinely shafted. Wealth creators are the enemy and we should all care about “the poor and needy.” Well, you can f**k right off!!! The ever growing underbelly of wasters we have get everything they want. The streets are paved with gold if you’re an immigrant. Decent people get nothing except interference, ever more state control and stupid rules. Most of them(establishment) wouldn’t last a week before being sacked in a private company if they made the kind of consistently stupid decisions they make now. We’re governed by f**king halfwits.
    What I’m getting at is we need real change. Not just (Obamaesque) lip service but complete change. Maybe that means blowing it right open, getting rid of them all and starting from scratch. We’ll never get another chance like this again. I must admit I didn’t realise just how cliquey it all is. This hackgate has been a real eye opener to me. I’ve been so frustrated over the last 15 years over why the press have never stood up for us and supported our opinions. How our country has been allowed to slide into the abyss for so long and everyone just let it happen. It’s all crystal clear now though. Thanks, John.
    I want to be allowed to be proud of my country. Who we are and what we stand for. Almost to roll it back 30-40 years and start over. I want the green and pleasant land I grew up in. I worry though that while this shower are in control we’ve got no chance of putting ourselves back on the right path, unless we break them completely. It has to be utterly brutal to ALL involved in this. Maybe we need a new party to be formed by the great and the good that this country contains. It’s amazing how far honesty, reliability and good ethics can take you. Totally the opposite to what we have now.
    But we will only get one shot at this – it’s now or never.

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  14. 14
    Caratacus on July 13, 2011 at 2:41 pm

    @ MickC

    See what you are saying. But I’m a simple soul and, taking the examples you give (wrong/not-as-wrong), I couldn’t disagree more. I have always thought that it was wrong to invade Iraq (let alone ‘get rid of’ the leader of a sovereign nation just because we disapprove of him. Even someone as admittedly nutty as Hussein), and wrong – and stupid – to invade Afghanistan. I’m no shrinking violet, but even I know enough to read the lessons of history in that neck of the woods; the best way to fight is to KNOW that you can win. Likewise Libya – unwise, ill-considered and doomed to failure.
    In any case, even if those examples could be described as ‘wise’ they were still wrong because innocent people would be killed; it’s as simple as that. Difficult, I know but it’s that stark. And to all those armchair warriors who wouldn’t know what a ‘forward assist’ is without sniggering into their hands I would ask one question: If you could sort out a particular international problem out by placing a loaded revolver against a child’s head and pulling the trigger, would you do it? No? Well don’t bloody well pay other people to do it and then watch it on TV. There is never any justification for doing wrong or ‘not-as-wrong’…. only self-justification.
    Not having a pop at you Mick – more the woolly thinking that waits to trap us all if we’re not careful…

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  15. 15
    oldasiahand on July 13, 2011 at 1:39 pm

    Of course they can but then the long arm of the US Embassy would descend on the politicos and the Met and off he would be free. Given that Rupe has the right of residency here there is no reason the autorities cannot arrest him except they are so compromised.

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  16. 16
    william, on July 13, 2011 at 1:39 pm

    Whoops! Bid withdrawn.New bid in six months,probably,competition enquiry, same result.

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  17. 17
    MickC on July 13, 2011 at 1:34 pm

    Almost typed “money…..or just powder”! Can’t think why.

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  18. 18
    MickC on July 13, 2011 at 1:30 pm

    There is indeed right and wrong-and if the choice is between them obviously one goes for the right.
    Unfortunately, the choice is usually between wrong and not as wrong-the world is a complicated place. It was “right” to get rid of Saddam Hussein-until you see the consequences-not quite as right then, was it? It was right to intervene in Afghanistan, until you see the result-it was right to intervene in Libya, until oops, it hasn’t worked!
    I carry no banner for Murdoch (like he would need that!), but I do carry a banner for press freedom, which I think is now in great danger.
    What I hope has been achieved is the breaking of Murdochs control of the British body politic, but do not forget our representatives are venal in the extreme and will look for someone else to feed them. The food they crave may be money (in many cases) or just power (after all Cameron is a rich man and well able to be independent of outside pressure), but they will certainly be back to to the trough. n

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  19. 19
    HACKGATE DAY 182: Who are the hari-kiri candidates? | The Slog on July 13, 2011 at 1:16 pm

    […] Bin Lyin’The Strauss-Kahn Waltz ← EXCLUSIVE: Why the Gordon Brown trail could sink Camerlot. July 13, 2011 · 1:15 pm ↓ Jump to […]

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  20. 20
    william, on July 13, 2011 at 1:00 pm

    After the pantomine in the House today, and more nonsense from Nic Robinson,you realise that Rupe has played a blinder in the last 10 days.BSkyb’s share price is down from £8 to 675p,and his previous son in law is long and audibly sweating about that.A competition enquiry will last 32 weeks and hear submissions from everybody,BAR THE POLITICIANS.It’s argued conclusions will have to offer a means that Newscorp can follow to satisfy whatever objections are raised.EU law will prevent a visible stitch up of the Family.Hunt will not dare contradict the competition bods.The BSkyB board will be under pressure from the 61 percent shareholders to deliver certainty, finality,and a deal.A newly incorporated entity, without any Murdoch or other miscreant in sight,with saints and angels as non execs, will cough up £9 or so SEPTEMBER 2012 and the Family Trust will still be the ultimate controlling body.

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  21. 21
    Brian Morrison on July 13, 2011 at 12:47 pm

    Just get people to download and use Gpg4win, it will do what’s needed in Outlook. But read on to see why it’s not a lot of use…..

    But there are problems with public key crypto, firstly it does take effort to maintain your contact’s keys on your key ring (keeping the discipline to do this and ensure your secret keys are not on the machine(s) you use is hard) and RIPA means that you can be forced to hand over your keys by LEAs. A better way is to make use of something like Off The Record (OTR) via instant messaging, this uses ephemeral keys so that you cannot divulge a key because you the user never know what it is and it is not stored. Keeping no logs then means you cannot be forced to reveal what you don’t want to.

    Keep secrets in your head, don’t store them on electronic media!

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  22. 22
    Dr. Brian O'Mahoney on July 13, 2011 at 12:27 pm

    Maria, this is the architypal case of people hoist by their own petard. Worldwide governments and government agencies especially the US-NSA have insisted that the encryption of consumer electronic devices be dumbed down so they could crack it.

    Technology advances, GPUs and FPGAs have meant that everyone now has access to this technology.

    The exact same story with e-mail, the technology is there to make it 100% secure and sender-authenticated but it is an almost insuperable pain to get this working in MS Outlook. Instead of ID cards give us UK GOV signed X509 certificates.

    Or google “Swiss Sign”

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  23. 23
    Caratacus on July 13, 2011 at 12:20 pm

    Profitable, perhaps; right? definitely not. There is black and white, right or wrong. The good way to behave or the bad way. The grey areas are where we find politicians and their apologists, and a generally shitty place it can be. I prefer to to stay less wealthy, appear naive and foolish, and able to look myself in the eye in the mirror without blinking.

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  24. 24
    Dr. Brian O'Mahoney on July 13, 2011 at 12:12 pm

    No, he needs not to pass GO and go straight to JAIL, with James and Rebekka, and be deported afterward. His titles do not need to close, they can easily be sold and re-formed. If the 400’000 burgers of Zuerich can support the Neu Zuericher Zietung the 60M+ in the UK can support a thoughtful Times and a righ-centre Sun.

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  25. 25
    skirmish on July 13, 2011 at 12:08 pm

    In this case the fear of blackmail is probably just as effective as the actual use of it. I suspect there are a lot of very worried people all the way up to the top praying that skeletons remain in the closet. Sooner or later though those old bones are going to start rattling!

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  26. 26
    Nobby on July 13, 2011 at 12:03 pm

    Why hasn’t Murdoch been arrested?
    Can a citizen of the UK effect a citizens arrest against a non-UK citizen?
    Just wonering when s.79 of the RIPA is going to be brought in to play.

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  27. 27
    Dr. Brian O'Mahoney on July 13, 2011 at 12:01 pm

    I can’t bear it when people use a greater evil to defend a lesser evil. Attack ALL evil, and stop talking about left-wing witch hunts

    Absolutely right John, the theme it doesn’t count if the bad guys are on my team is a great recurrent fallacy of British political life, and one assiduously fostered by the Murdoch Empire. Tribalism must stop.

    Time to go after ALL the malfeasors, in the the Police, in the Media, at Westminster and in Whitehall. The Manderins are important since without their malfeasance and corruption this cesspit could not have continued for over ten years and two governments.

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  28. 28
    SICK OF CROOKS AND MURDERERS AND COWARDS on July 13, 2011 at 11:22 am

    So its no use Tom Watson come clumping onto my television screen pretending to be up in arms about hacking. He is up to his jowls in sleaze, those RTV self back patters are employing some well dodgy people and Tom Watson is well in with them. As for Gordon Brown come moaning about being hacked, and expecting to get any sympathy about his family life being put into the public arena, I think someone needs to contact Gillian Duffy and get her to sort him out again, phone number to give her a ring to try to get her to sort him out, that man is so full of self pity he deserves a good tongue lashing from one of us Northern matrons. to remind him that it was on his watch that the most appalling corruption was going on in Government including people being hacked by MI5.

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  29. 29
    james c on July 13, 2011 at 11:18 am

    Apart from the names that have been mentioned, there are several other Tories who have been close to News International. Gove is one who comes to mind- has suddenly become unusually quiet.

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  30. 30
    tomfarrel on July 13, 2011 at 11:18 am

    “… you have to look at greatest good : that is what being right-wing is all about…” are you saying that the lefty feminists in the Guardian don’t also want the greatest good? We mightn’t see it that way, but they do. I will oppose anyone – left or right – who thinks they have a monoply of virtue and that they alone know what constitutes “the greatest good” Is “the greatest good” the offspring of “white man’s burden”?

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  31. 31
    SICK OF CROOKS AND MURDERERS AND COWARDS on July 13, 2011 at 11:11 am

    Tom Watson is friends with Peter Bazalgette, president of RTV which employed at least one member of MI5 (David Rose) and some scumbag dodgy journalists who when not writing articles discrediting institutional child abuse investigations such as Haut de la Garenne are helping protect paedophiles get away with their horrible crimes with their support groups British False Memory Society (BFMS) and Falsely Accused Carers and Teachers (FACT) and RTV doled out a phony regional television award to Channel Television which was based on a leaked report that was illegally mucked about with. It was not the first time Rose had been in trouble over awards being given to propaganda TV documentaries, as he was also involved in IN THE NAME OF THE CHILDREN a Panorama programme which was broadcast November 26th 2000. Tom Watson is involved with those crafty scumbags

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  32. 32
    TheRagingTory on July 13, 2011 at 11:04 am

    If the Sun arent telling another Wapper, and they really did have Browns permission, and proof thereof, then Briowns likely just saved them.
    In the public eye, it suddenly becomes beardy lefties making stuff up again.

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  33. 33
    Ronnie on July 13, 2011 at 10:47 am

    John, it can sometimes be profitable to prop up a lesser evil “A” in its fight against a greater evil “B”, as long as “A” remains dependent on your prop.

    It achieves a lot of what you want at low cost to yourself.

    Consider by way of analogy how the USA propped up the British Empire during WW2 in order to fatally weaken all its major global competitors and end up top-dog for a couple of generations.

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  34. 34
    The Inspector on July 13, 2011 at 10:41 am

    The Met now consider themselves as part of the Establishment.
    Hayman showed contempt yesterday and didn’t do the Force any favours at all. They, Brooks and Coulson ( who was deliberately planted on boy dave) have a very tangled web to protect that will probably never see the light of day.

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  35. 35
    Richard G on July 13, 2011 at 10:01 am

    perhaps it’s not even that blackmail has occured but that the person who could be knows that others know something about them that doesn’t fit fully with a particular “group” campaign or udertaking

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  36. 36
    John Ward on July 13, 2011 at 9:50 am

    Sorry, I can’t bear it when people use a greater evil to defend a lesser evil. Attack ALL evil, and stop talking about left-wing witch hunts: when people are witches, you get witch hunts.
    People still don’t get what this site’s about, do they? A plague on the house of ALL evildoers, and the sooner we’re rid of ALL of them the better.
    Give me f**king strength.

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  37. 37
    John Ward on July 13, 2011 at 9:47 am

    Hear bloody hear

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  38. 38
    John Ward on July 13, 2011 at 9:45 am

    skirmish
    Blackmail is a word of which the legals are terrified: they never let me use it except about a case that’s done, dusted and proved.
    But I’d use it more often if they’d let me. Your point is well made.

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  39. 39
    John Ward on July 13, 2011 at 9:42 am

    I do truly fear the ability of these MPs to use this excuse to muzzle. I also fear a mass close-down of the right-wing press. But Murdoch is using this fear: he doesn’t need to close, he just needs to learn how to behave.

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  40. 40
    AJC on July 13, 2011 at 9:39 am

    “it will get much worse for the Metropolitan Police” – I do hope so.

    At the local level we have clearly had bent foot-soldiers acting as instant news-feeds – presumably an activity well known to their superiors (who probably took a cut). Near and at the top we have muddled thinking, political bias massive incompetence and almost certainly some graft.

    Ian Blair is one person who has been keeping a low profile: many of the Met’s failings appear to have multiplied on his watch. How Blair. Dick, and others, managed to wriggle out of the Jean Charles de Menezes debacle was a disgrace. That case deserves reactivation.

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  41. 41
    John Ward on July 13, 2011 at 9:23 am

    And this is all my fault, I presume?
    Tell me why it’s bollocks.
    ‘Disgusting’ to see them lining up? This is to use a turd as a defence against somebody pissing on us.
    You’re suggesting that the only choices are Miliband or Murdoch; and that’s a weak argument Organstan.
    Be specific about what’s ‘unbalanced’ in this. Then be specific about what’s ‘balanced’ about Newscorp’s behaviour.

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  42. 42
    Maria dos Santos on July 13, 2011 at 9:08 am

    All these long served security people seem to be still unaware of hacking.Even during questioning their mobile phones and computers were being tracked by not just little Russian geeks.Those little geek were watching others hacking into phones and computers.Shockingly,the security and encryption on these machines are negligible.
    What comes out of all of this is quite simple find better encryption techniques for all your electronic devices.

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  43. 43
    skirmish on July 13, 2011 at 9:00 am

    The one word that seems to be missing from all the commentary I’ve seen so far is ‘blackmail’ – Surely most of the newspapers have ‘something’ on nearly ‘everyone’ and that is what seems to be binding this tangled mess together at the moment. Surely though as individuals become threatened though their tongues will loosen in order to defend themselves and slowly but surely the mess will start to unravel. Oh, and of course there are lots of scores to settle too. We are living in very interesting times…

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  44. 44
    Richard G on July 13, 2011 at 8:59 am

    I see Lord Ashcroft is mentioning Tom Baldwin’s apparently similar tactics to Andy Coulson

    The cynic in me just wonders if this is to try to get Labour leadership to spike Gordon Brown

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  45. 45
    Miranda on July 13, 2011 at 8:57 am

    Agree with this, the only way to be informed is through blogs – you don’t want them to be unbiased, you need a range of views to consider : nothing is black and white, and you have to look at greatest good : that is what being right-wing is all about. Which is why I want to concentrate in the NI affair on the role of the supposedly impartially balance, but in actual fact monopoly views, of the BBC, that bias our democracy (well what is left of it).

    Jeremy Hunt should consider why our state broadcaster has pursued the one sided charge, and frequently in league with the Guardian. Why have we had a parade of ‘guys with blood and corruption’ on their hands to bear witness against NI – with no context on the fit and proper background of these people. As for Brown, well, words fail me, considering the mud and slander he involved himself in. He didn’t hack, he just made it up.

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  46. 46
    Altergoman on July 13, 2011 at 8:56 am

    Apologies for all the typos I am of the era when you would not admit to keyboard skills even though we had developed and were using a precursor of email in the mid 70’s

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  47. 47
    Altergoman on July 13, 2011 at 8:49 am

    JW I am pleased you like Hayman’s ‘moral high horse’ show, but it was a gift for him.

    All honest plods will answer no to the question ‘have you ever received etc and surely all bent plods would do the same?

    Did the MP actually think that he would say something like fair cop you’ve got me banged to rights?

    Did you love the way P Clark(e) did not think it was at all suspicious that NI were trying to obstruct his investigation?

    Don’t you think S. Akers is the quintissential honest PLOD, she has spoken to 170, only another 3700 + 4000 + 5000 to go then(she claimed adequate personnel numbers for the task, notably she said she did not want to be back in five years time isn’t that a big clue as to how high the grass is going to be where this affair is pointing.

    Was it not marvellous to see the supposed sharpest tools in the MP’s toolshed defend all the wrong or in some questions they asked, you often get the answer you want by asking all the wrong questions or not asking any a all don’t you think.

    Finally the two wonderful pieces of irony so far in this matter are surely

    a) Mulcaire pleading for the media et al to respect his childrens and family’s privacy

    b) The Sun today protecting their source who they claim has a CF son, but helpflly to add authenticity the gave the actor a broad Scottish accent. The Sun is so so caring

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  48. 48
    Malcolm Redfellow on July 13, 2011 at 8:48 am

    If this is going to get even dirtier (and it is), The Sun’s version will have to be stood up, and tested:
    “We discovered the ex-PM’s four-year-old son Fraser had cystic fibrosis months after his birth.
    “We can reveal the source of our information was a shattered dad whose own son also has the crippling disease and who wanted to highlight the plight of sufferers.
    “And when we approached former Labour leader Mr Brown and his wife Sarah with the story, she gave us their consent to run it…”
    Why does this somehow remind me of “The War of Jennifer’s Ear”? I cannot help wondering how far down the line The Sun has to produce the “shattered dad`’.

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  49. 49
    Miranda on July 13, 2011 at 8:46 am

    Well said, my view entirely: particularly the ‘guys with blood and corruption’, and the ‘unholy alliance’. I’d very much like to see the end of Cameron, but not at the hands of a left-wing, Salem style, witch hunt.

    Meanwhile, the EU is in danger, and in order to save itself the Brussels snake will tighten its grip on us further. This is our greatest danger – not helped one bit by Cameron. The only way he managed to ensure he got that 9bn GBP IMF deal through, was to change the timing of the vote. I’d much rather the EU was his downfall.

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  50. 50
    Morningstar on July 13, 2011 at 8:41 am

    My concern right now is that MPs have given themselves carte blanche reason to mute the press ! What we need – rather than more legal supression of free speech is a definition of ‘in the public interest’ in order to get ‘tittle tattle’ out of journalism but real stories about how the country is being run or sold down the river on the front pages. ‘Celebrity’ gossip needs to be replaced by robust calling to account for MP decisions !
    This it has to be said is my reason for pretty much aborting myself of printed or visual news media – they rarely tell us anything useful ! It is the personal Blogs who tend to get hold of, and give us, the stories behind the (oft unreported) news. OK they can be politically biased (to their view) but with a wide ranging opinion in the blogosphere from many perspectives (even the sinle issue sites) and the comment sections – one can learn much more about what is happening than you could ever glean from even the 24 hour news channels !
    That said – your site is number 1 on my list of visits every day – keep it up !

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  51. 51
    oldasiahand on July 13, 2011 at 8:26 am

    Would be no bad thing if there were a little more nationalism where takeovers are concerned. Sure the City may be concerned about reduced fees but when did they ever bother about the wider national interest? ost of them aren’t British anyway. We are the only mugs on the planet who play by the rules and provide open sesame to foreigners to all our assets. It’s about time we joined the real world and forgot the text books and the narrow legalisms that have governed our polity for too long.

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  52. 52
    organstan on July 13, 2011 at 8:09 am

    Sorry about the spelling errors above; I’m not a great typist

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  53. 53
    organstan on July 13, 2011 at 8:08 am

    I’m afraid that to me at least, you are starting to get unbalanced about this and joining the “talking bollocks” brigade. Everyone & his brother/sister is lining up to kick Murdoch and it has become a social embarrasment in some quarters if you can’t claim to having had your phone hacked. It is clear that Brown has made a typically cack-handed attempt to join in despite the fact that revelations about his son were politically very convenient at the time and apparently had nothing to do with hacking/blagging.

    It is quite discusting to see all these guys with blood or corruption on their hands lining up to have a go. And the unholy alliance of the Telegraph/Guardian/Mail/BBC could come back as another horror story.
    Because we are now in danger of the usual political “unintended consequences” mess. There is every danger that politicians will try to muzzle the press and comment (and that would include you John) and that would be a disaster; currently the press can use barely legal methods if the story is in the public interests — MP’s expenses & whatever — can you see that surviving. There is some concern in the City that future takeovers might be de-railed by MPs without waiting for due process of the law (alluded to by Robert Preston this morning).
    In any case you are forgetting the golden rule — a week is a long time in politics. What if later this month we have the Greek collapse; followed by a few banks in the EU; there is – heaven forbid – a terror outrage; or a favourite Royal dies. Then the front pages will change.
    It is all a matter of luck and so far Cameron, like Blair, has been a very lucky politician.
    I don’t like the guy but right now I’d put my money on Murdoch rather than Milliband.

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